Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED x3]

Update [2008-3-18 8:23:51 by susanhu]:

Talk is cheap. The video's title: "We Are The Ones (Can you hear me?)'

Those people shown at the end of the video? Those are the people who will have heard Jeremiah Wright's words and will not forget. And no excuse-making in the world can remove those searing ugly, divisive, racist remarks from their memories.

I know such people. I live around such people. You may not. Believe it or not, they don't go to blogger conventions. In fact most of them, when I mention a blog, have no idea what I am talking about. But, since I do know these people, I can guarantee you that they see through the excuses. They know the HATE behind those words. They will not forget.

Update [2008-3-17 23:0:7 by susanhu]: A friend sent me more questions, so I'm adding those to the list. The new questions begin at #8.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.usThe transparent and inclusive candidate will have his moment of crisis in Philadelphia when he delivers his "Checkers" speech. Now the transparent candidate must be, well, transparent.

  1. How much money total over 20 years has Obama given to his church?

  2. What percent of his charitable giving has gone to his church?

  3. How many rabbis or Jewish leaders have received Obama's church's "Trumpet" award given to Farrakhan?

  4. How many rabbis have been invited to speak from Obama's church's pulpit?

  5. How many times a year did Obama go to church?

  6. On what Sundays exactly did he attend services?

  7. By the way, how many reporters have seen this magazine financed partly with Obama's donations?
  8. Does he intend to resign from the church?

  9. Why was Wright a member of his campaign's advisory committee?

  10. Why was the offer to Wright to speak during the invocation of Barack Obama's campaign announcement rescinded?

  11. Did Barack have discussions with Wright regarding specific remarks Wright uttered?

  12. Was Obama ever aware of Wright's use of his pulpit as a political soundboard?

  13. Is Obama prepared to state that he never heard controversial remarks from Wright? Or will he rely on the obfuscatory language he utilized in the Huffington Post essay?

Do you expect that Obama will answer even ONE of those questions tomorrow? No. Instead, we'll be treated to more blather about hope, change, his mixed DNA, and the "we are one" baloney that no bedrock voting American will believe for a second. HE IS OVER. And the Democratic party had better realize it.

Barack Obama has lost 17 points in net favorability, and he's in freefall. Look at the stunning conclusions of viewers of Jeremiah Wright in this racial graph, a fascinating innovative technology, that political expert Jerome Armstrong has posted at MyDD.com.

But none of his excuses is going to help him. Beyond the ludicrious excuse from Obama himself that he never heard Wright's racist comments, and didn't have a clue Wright talked like that -- here's this from the clueless, lying Dick Durbin in "Durbin's New Defense of Obama on the Wright Issue," written today, March 17, 2008:

The Obama campaign has just wrapped up a conference call with reporters.  On the call, top Obama supporter Sen. Dick Durbin claimed that "many" of the controversial statements made by Rev. Jeremiah Wright were made before Barack Obama joined Trinity United Church of Christ. "Many of the quotes that have been disclosed publicly were made by Reverend Wright at a time before Barack Obama became part of his congregation and in places where Barack Obama was not even present," Durbin said. "[To] hold Sen. Obama accountable for speeches and sermons that were given before he joined the church is fundamentally unfair."

To my knowledge, Wright's statements "God damn America," "America's-chickens-are-coming-home-to-r oost," and "U.S. of KKK A" were made while Obama was part of the Trinity congregation [OF COURSE THEY WERE], although the senator says he was not present in church for any of them.  I don't believe Obama has claimed that they were made before he joined the church, and I'm not sure why Durbin is using that argument now.

The Obama campaign quickly ended the call after the second Wright question. [I'LL BET THEY DID.]

Square that baloney with this from Obama's interview by CNN's Anderson Cooper:

COOPER: So, no one in the church ever said to you, man, last week, you missed this sermon; Reverend Wright said this; or...

OBAMA: No.

COOPER: I mean, I think I read in your books that you listened to tapes of Reverend Wright when you were at Harvard Law School.

OBAMA: I did.

So he's never heard Wright talk like that. His sorry-excuse-for-a-surrogate Durbin says he joined the church after Wright stopped talking like that.  

But he listened to Wright's tapes while he was at Harvard Law School from 1988 to 1991.  And he says that he's been a member of the church for 20 years, which means he joined the church in 1988.

And he NEVER heard Wright talk like that?  Give me a break.

Update [2008-3-17 23:46:3 by susanhu]: Why do I do this? I get zero pleasure out of it. But I am trying to figure out how to get through to people that Obama is not qualified to be president, and has serious problems in his background that GENERAL ELECTION VOTERS will be extremely wary about. The current polls about the general election do not matter, except insofar as they show a downward trend in how Obama is perceived by "JOHN AND JANE DOE" average Americans. We MUST win in November, and we have a far better chance, I believe, with Hillary Clinton as the candidate. Her negative can be overcome, as she has done in the major state primary contests.

FURTHER: I believe that Hillary Clinton has a far more sophisticated, and deep, grasp of the issues facing this country. I posted information about her statement on the economy today at No Quarter.

Later, I plan to post her plan to get us out of Iraq as well as her speech today on Iraq.

Obama makes good statements on both subjects, but I doubt his ability to transform his rhetoric into real action and concrete steps to change the course of this country.

Numerous Republican senators have mentioned that, despite his rhetoric about "reaching across the aisle," they saw little or no evidence of such in his short time in the Senate.

I am also fearful about his real commitment to progressive views. The pro-privatization views of his senior economic advisers give me great worry (see RonK Seattle's many investigative posts on this). I worry that he'll cave in to the Republicans on extremely important matters such as Supreme Court appointments. He hasn't the backbone or resolve that Hillary Clinton has.

These are my opinions. But they are based on rather in-depth study of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. You may disagree. But, since MOST people are mostly besotted with Obama's rhetoric -- and haven't taken the time to study his background and his positions -- we have to do something to wake people up.

The views of his 20-year pastor -- and his dissembling about never hearing about those remarks before -- are very worrisome indicators that we cannot expect much frankness or sophisticated responses from Mr. Obama.

Some people believe that Mr. Obama secretly shares the views of his pastor. I will not go that far. But, if it were true, that would be extremely worrisome.

That's enough for now. Agree with me or not. But know that I do this solely because I am desperately worried that we might nominate the lesser of the two candidates.


Display:


Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 13)

Your comments are most welcome.


by susanhu on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:35:06 PM EST

Congratulations (1.50 / 2)

On ensuring that Hillary will never become president. You must be proud.


by highgrade on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Surely you don't blame Hillary (2.00 / 3)

... for Barack's attendance at Trinity.

Do you think, honestly, that the majority of Americans can hear those things and say, "Well, it's OK because it's just a sound byte?"  Sound bytes bite sometimes, just ask Al Gore.  Just ask John Kerry.  Just ask Hillary.

As a white person, I will willingly admit that I don't have the same experience and I am extremely sorry that AA's have endured the cruelties and inhumane treatment.  People are correct in saying that whites cannot grasp the AA response to Wright's message because of our differences.  I would add that IMHO, there are a lot of AA's who don't appreciate Wright's statements either.  They may have a full understanding, but have chosen a different route in life.

Are you saying that the diarist has just ensured that Hillary won't be prez because AA's will not vote for her?  They MAY not; then again, she is being strongly encouraged to keep on keeping on with the AA community and I see that is what she is doing.

Personally, I agree with one commentary tonight.  Barack has been inspiration and brought hope but has been largely a blank page.  Church attendance/affiliation adds a piece to the puzzle of Barack Obama.  He made his choice - maybe the most perfect choice for he and his family.  I don't think others see his choice as wise for a person who espouses togetherness and unity and hope.

The "Yes We Can" may ring a little different after hearing Wright's sound bytes.

Just some thoughts.  


by Southern Mouth on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:12:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course it's Hillary's fault (none / 0)

**SNARK ALERT!*
*
**SNARK ALERT!**

The Clinton's are responsible for everything.

She must have advised Obama 20 years ago to attend that church, otherwise he would have never attended it.

And no doubt, Hillary must have introduced Obama and Rezko, and probably picked out all the buildings that Rezko was supposed to fix - heck, how can anyone doubt that Hillary probably located the house that Obama purchased, and she must have made a personal phone call to the sellers to reduce the price by something like $300,000 in exchange for Rezko buying the other piece of land.

And it's her fault that Obama circulated Harry & Louise-like flyers with a bunch of lies - if she wouldn't have tried to bring about universal health care in the early 90s, the idea for that flyer would have never popped into someone's head.

And Hillary is personally responsible for over 3000 GI deaths in Iraq.

And she turns little kids into zombies.

And she eats cats.

So of course it's all Hillary's fault!


Never let the bullies win.
by SluggoJD on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:11:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Problems with this post. (2.00 / 2)

#1:  Donations to a church really is a risky topic to touch on.  However, donations to a church are not donations to a pastor.  Furthermore, the fact that one magazine issue praised Farrakhan(for social work, I believe..) is pretty marginal in regards to your question.  You're sort of sensationalizing that aspect.
#2:   See Number #1.
#3:   Stop trying to make Obama look anti-semitic.  David Axelrod, Barack Obama's top aide for years now, is Jewish.  Correct me if I'm wrong there..
#4:   Again, stop trying to make him and his church seem anti-semitic.
#5:   I think it's fair to admit that it's hard for anyone to get that estimate right.  However, a rough idea would be suitable.
#6:   Again, that's not the kind of estimate that someone could accurately make unless he goes very often or hardly often.  It's only good for the vaguest of guesstimates.
#7:   Plenty have.  This came up during a recent debate.

But he listened to Wright's tapes while he was at Harvard Law School from 1988 to 1991.  And he says that he's been a member of the church for 20 years, which means he joined the church in 1988.

Do any of those videos correspond to those years?


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Other Problems With the Content; (none / 0)

"Barack Obama has lost 17 points in net favorability, and he's in freefall.

Where exactly did that number come from?

As for this piece,

here's this from the clueless, lying Dick Durbin in "Durbin's New Defense of Obama on the Wright Issue," written today, March 17, 2008:

, I have to wonder.  Basically, you mentioned how Durbin said that the comments were made before Obama joined the church.  Since Durbin is the only one to have said that, it could be an honest mistake.  That hasn't been suggested by anyone else.  To address the last part, I haven't heard anywhere else that the conference call ended after the second Wright question.   Infact, considering that it's from the National Review..................


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:02:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (2.00 / 5)

Donations to a church ARE donations to a pastor. Those donations help pay his salary along with electrical bills etc.

The anti semitic stuff comes from who he has associated with in the past.

His pastor has made some pretty damning comments about Israel that could be taken as anti semitic.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:07:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (2.00 / 0)

Most Israelis AND most American Jews do not support the current Israeli government and their policies.

Are they anti-Israel?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

What's bothering me is that he's saying such views are anti-Semitic.  He's trying to bait.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:16:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (2.00 / 2)

Go to youtube and pull up one of Wright's sermons. He calls the Israli's terrorists. It goes beyond a policy difference.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:17:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Would it have been better if he had refered to them as supporting Apartheid against the Palestinians? Or do you consider your states' own Jimmy Carter an anti-semite?


by Socraticsilence on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:29:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

yes, that would have been much better. Calling them terrorists is beyond the pale in my opinion.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:06:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

I have called Israelis terrorists; some of the things their gov't does is terrorism, plain and simple.  

Does that make me anti-semitic?


by Cycloptichorn on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:01:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Certainly sounds like it.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:07:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Inthe ewyes of way too many in the Irael lobby and the religous right, yes.


by spirowasright on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

No, what you're asserting is ridiculous.  As far as I'm aware at the moment, the only comment has been that the U.S. was involved with state-terrorism against the Palestinians.  There ARE Jewish people who believe that Israeli sometimes goes too far, and that doesn't make them anti-Semitic.

Make no mistake about it.  I like Israeli.  I know Jews.  My father is one.  We have distant cousins over there.  I agree that they have the right to defend themselves and their land.  But to assert that being pro-Palestinian is anti-Semitic isn't very accurate.  In fact, if you look at his remarks about Jesus being a black man and blaming his death on the Italians(not the Jews), there's nothing there that I've seen which is anti-Semitic.  It's not even anti-Semitic if what he was saying is that Jesus was black, just sort of weird.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Don't ask where those extra i's came from.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Is that not implying that the Israli's are terrorists? Of course, he also pretty much called Americans terrorists too saying something to the extent that we're the same as Al Queda.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah exactly... (none / 0)

he also pretty much called Americans terrorists too saying something to the extent that we're the same as Al Queda.

... that's a pretty ridiculous assertion.

Operation Phoenix

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say, 'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant, put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.' Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say, 'April Fool, motherfucker.' Whoever answered the door would get wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to camp with ears to prove that they killed people."

   - Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has served as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.

What is the SOA?

The School of the Americas (SOA), in 2001 renamed the "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation," is a combat training school for Latin American soldiers, located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the "biggest base for destabilization in Latin America." The SOA, frequently dubbed the "School of Assassins," has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, "disappeared," massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.

Totally ridiculous.


by kraant on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:37:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (2.00 / 2)

When he says that the Jews were black and the Romans who crucified him were white, he is re-writing history in a disturbing way...since modern day Jews are white, he seems to be saying that blacks are the real Jews, which makes one wonder whether he recognizes actual Jews as actually being Jewish. Yeah, it's weird alright.

He also says that white people killed Jesus...it's one thing to identify with Jesus, as Christians of all races do, and another to claim Jesus as the exclusive property of one's own race, and use him to batter those considered to be one's enemies.


by Alice in Florida on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Do you get this worked up over the plaster white jesus in many Churches?


by Socraticsilence on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

Jesus has been portrayed as fair skinned with blond hair, as Asian, with dark hair, etc.  The thing people forget is that Judaism transcends race, and while yes there is such a thing as Semitic blood, you CAN be African and Jewish.  So, no- he's not necessarily saying Jesus wasn't Jewish.


"Behold, I send you out as sheep amidst the wolves! Therefore, be as wise as a serpent, And as harmless as a dove."
by Setrak on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:38:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Problems with this post. (none / 0)

At least he's not saying that the Jews killed Jesus, as the Catholic church did for many hundreds of years, inspiring and supporting pogroms, and inquisitions, and the expelling of Jews, and the Crusades.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If I were donating to David Duke (none / 0)

.... would you doubt any remarks that I really care about the AA community?  You may doubt it already, but if you found that out, would it be further evidence that your doubts were well founded?


by Southern Mouth on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 3)

I wrote a second update that expresses, in part, my reasons for writing this and other recent diaries.

It is impossible to express to those who decry my work how very much I do not like doing this.  But something -- somehow -- has to wake people up before it is too late.  I've written a great deal about the great differences between Barack and Hillary on health care, economic plans, Iraq, and more... but the material above is also fair game because it speaks to WHO this man is.  And his dissembling excuses in the last week have also informed us about WHO this man is.  

Read my update above, at the end of the article, for more.  I doubt any of you attacking me will agree with anything I say.  It would be silly to expect you to see beyond your own views.  

But I can tell you that the revelations of the last week have profoundly affected how AVERAGE Americans view Obama.  And they do not like what they are hearing and seeing.  

I live surrounded by such "average" Americans -- fine people -- people who work hard, have served our country's military, dedicate much of their time to help others -- and they will not vote for Barack Obama.  You have my word on it.  And that terrifies me because that means we'd end up with McCain.  Unless the Democratic party wakes up and nominates its most experienced, most able candidate, Hillary Clinton.


by susanhu on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:56:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

No, Susanhu, that is not good enough. You can't go all out and cross the line to raise these inappropriate questions and then claim that you really care about policy differences. If that's what you care about, then write a diary about those.

It is thoroughly illiberal to "go there" as you have .


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:02:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

So you admit in the diary itself that you don't really believe Obama agrees with Wright, and you are just doing it to help Clinton. Doesn't that kind of undermine the whole point of this McCarthyesque assault on Obama's personal religious views?

Furthermore, what is the effect of this? Do you think there are any undecided people on this board? I wonder how many people all these hours of diary writing end up convincing.


by animated on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 01:00:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 0)

Help me out here --
Can you define those "religious views" Obama is being attacked for and you are defending?  His pastor's religious view that the US started the AIDS virus, or the relgious view that Bill Clinton "rode" the black community like he did Monica?

Just curious.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 04:28:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

I didn't say that.  I said I won't go that far in my stated assertions.  There's a big difference.

but, per usual, read into it what you want to believe.


by susanhu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Answers (none / 0)

Since Obama has released his tax return information for the past few years, why Susan I'm sure you could go find out how much he gave to his church. Wow transparency is cool.


Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:56:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Answers (2.00 / 1)

Already written about that elsewhere.

$22,000+ in 2006.... twice as much as he gave any other charity.  Poor little CARE got half that much.

Good his money went to a church's magazine that gives Farakkhan its cover.


by susanhu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:06:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Answers (none / 0)

See my response down thread.
Domestic Advocacy, Drug and Alchohol recovery and HIV/AIDS ministries just three of like 30 or so ministries provided by Trinity.

Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:24:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

At this point (none / 0)

I've never been more wrong in my initial assessment of another human being than I was of you.


Support Regina Thomas, GA-12
by Drew on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:12:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: At this point (none / 0)

Whatever that means.  You don't know a thing about me, nor I about you.

I've got it all figured out:  If I write what YOU want to read, you love me.  If I write what YOU don't like, you hate me.

Therein is the description of the depth of online relationships.

How deep.


by susanhu on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If it makes you feel better (none / 0)

To believe that this is about my disagreement with you on whether I'd prefer Obama or Hillary be the nominee, fine.  But there are plenty of people online who write what I don't agree with, and I don't think they've hit a moral nadir because they do.


Support Regina Thomas, GA-12
by Drew on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 11:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

"Numerous Republican senators have mentioned that, despite his rhetoric about "reaching across the aisle," they saw little or no evidence of such in his short time in the Senate."

This is a pretty silly critcism.  It's been my impression that Repuplicans tend not to heap praise on Democratic front-runners in an election season.  


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:41:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

Actually, many Republicans HAVE said this about HRC

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200611/gr een-hillary


by cmugirl90 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

HRC is the exception to the rule.  Repubs would LOVE to face HRC in the general.  Why else does Rush encourage his listeners to vote for her?


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:06:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I always look forward to your diaries, Susan (none / 0)

Excellent work, as usual.


by earthoat on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:06:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

The thing that you should note about the graph is if one gives it creedence, were doomed in the Fall- notice the purple line, quite frankly it appears likely that African-American voters would rather sit out or vote McKinney than vote Clinton. The funniest thing about the Graph Study is that it registered only a 1 point change in canidate support, so for all the reaction to the video it only pushed voters 1 point!


by Socraticsilence on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:39:32 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

Instead, we'll be treated to more blather about hope, change, his mixed DNA, and the "we are one" baloney that no bedrock voting American will believe for a second.

Yes, all that revolting stuff about hope and change and moving past racial divisions. God, it makes me sick!


by animated on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:49:43 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (1.50 / 2)

Hillary 08-Hope is for losers! That or Hillary 08: see Obama might be as bad as I am, vote for me!


by Socraticsilence on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

I liked Bill Maher's line for McCain: "One more thing about hope - that shit don't float!"


by animated on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

they'll believe it from a person who believes it. this isn't that person.


by campskunk on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:53:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 3)

Not in light of the vicious, racist (!), unAmerican comments of his pastor for 20 years.


by susanhu on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:53:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

Do you believe you can be friends with a person, and not hold the same political views as them?


by animated on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:56:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 3)

It's not about just being friends. Obama has called Wright a mentor.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:08:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

So what? That doesn't mean he's a mentor on all matters, nor that he agrees with him about everything.

Furthermore, do you have ANY evidence that Obama has pursued any policies consistent with a divisive, racist message?  If not, then why the hell do you care what his pastor says?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 3)

His campaign has consistently put out a divisive racially tinged message. See the SC memo for evidence.

His pastor is important because he tells us who Obama really is. Obama himself has called him his "counselor". After hearing Wright's sermons, it makes the things Obama and Michelle have done and said a lot clearer in my mind.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:25:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

you say "consistently", then point to one thing?


by kapow on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 02:32:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

I did. The SC memo.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:12:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

  Can you site otherwise?


by artsykr on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 01:11:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

do you believe (2.00 / 3)

you can follow a spiritual advisor for 20 years and not share at least some of their world views?

Help me out with that part, because it really confuses me.  So, Obama and Wright spent 20 years just talking about Jesus and helping folks and the subjects of America, white folks, 9/11, AIDS, Farrahkan -- they just never came up, is that it?  In talks with a state and United States Senator contemplating a run for the Whitehouse, politics and social issues just never came up because whenever they sat down they talked exclusively about Jesus, do I have that right?

Or does Wright speak one way to these topics one on one with a Harvard educated guy like Obama, but then when he's up in front of his congregation, leading them, that's when he feels the need for some reason to turn to inflammatory anti-American, anti-white rhetoric.

oh.  I see.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 04:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do you believe (2.00 / 1)

That, to me, is the most incredible aspect of this whole episode.  I cannot imagine that any thinking person would believe one could attend a particular church for twenty years with that same pastor for twenty years and NOT know or comprehend the beliefs of that pastor.  For the first twenty-two years of my life, from the time I was an infant, I attended the Baptist Church.  It was not even always the same Baptist Church with the same pastor; however, I knew the pastors and I knew what they believed because I listened to them preach.  I knew and understood the differences in the personal beliefs of the pastor of the church I grew up in compared to the beliefs of the pastor of the church of my young adulthood.  Only an idiot would not know after even one year of sporatic attendance.  Obama must think that people will believe ANYTHING.  His response to this has been shocking and illuminating.


by macmcd on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:38:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: do you believe (none / 0)

How about John Kerry and other Catholic politicians who continue to remain in the Catholic church, but are pro-choice and support gay rights? How about the Church's decades-long silence on the priest molestations? Do you think all Catholic politicians agree with the cover up?

Or how about Bill Clinton, who identifies as a Southern Baptist, but also supports gay rights (and has taken flack from his church for it).

Here's an official tenet from the Southern Baptist church, let's see if you think Bill Clinton agrees:

A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.


by vadasz on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:14:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Catholics (2.00 / 1)

I don't know a thing about southern Baptists so I let someone else tackle that.  I do know a great deal about Catholicism.

Child molestation is not a tenet of the Church nor have I ever heard of it being preached from the pulpit.  It was and is the secretive practice of bad priests.  I don't know the position of Catholic politicians on the cover-up.  I imagine if priests started defending the practice you'd see Catholics of every profession stampeding out of the Church.

Catholics can choose their priest and their local church, but they can't question what the Pope declares from a position of infallibility or the tenets of the Church itself.  

The Church has been pretty clear on pro-choice politicians -- they aren't Catholics. I believe Kerry was challenge plenty on that and it lost him the votes of die-hard Catholics.   I believe there was talk of denying him Communion.  So, I think the argument could be made Kerry suffered politically and personally for the conflict between his religious practices and social positions.

The Wright flap is not about the history of the denomination or it's tenets.  It's about the beliefs and public rhetoric of one pastor who Obama CHOSE as his spiritual mentor and guide.

I think if you had a Catholic politician who chose as his confident and spiritual advisor a priest found to be preaching the joys of pedophelia from the pulpit you'd have a fair comparison.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

"no bedrock voting American?"

What the hell does that mean?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:11:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

African-Americans are some other kind of voting American apparently.  It's getting easier to hear the dog-whistling.  In another thread someone claimed that Michelle Obama doesn't know how to speak to "real people".  Very ugly stuff.


by Skaje on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:22:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

I think a better question would be asking why any answers to the questions you're posing to the Obama campaign regarding his religion would be even remotely illuminating as to how he would govern as President of the United States.


by atomica on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:55:19 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

The preaching of his church is very divisive.  The paster has been a significant figure in Obama's life.  I want to know how much they share in common, because it will surely reflect the way Obama govern the country.

If Obama disagreed with the church ideology, why he didn't walk out 20 years ago.  Why do it now when it threatened to hurt his candidacy.  If that's the case, for me it shows that Obama doesn't have the strength to stand up for his believe.

If Obama didn't know, why did he told Rev. Wright that he might be a problem later on in the campaign.  Obama told Wright that he might have to disassociate himself from Wright.

If Obama knew,  why he told us last week that he didn't know.

I think a lot of people want Obama to answer these important questions.  It will help us gauge how Obama will govern this country as president.


by JoeySky18 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:29:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

What do you say about this clause from the US Constitution:

no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

?

(Article VI, Section 3).


by vadasz on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:18:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

easy answer (none / 0)

there is no test -- but the general electorate gets to decide by their votes how much or how little a candidates religion matters.

what's your argument here?  Should Obama take his case to the Supreme Court?  "Obama vs the American People"?


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 07:34:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: easy answer (none / 0)

No,

my argument here (and with my other post about other religions) is that many people on this site are painting Obama with the brush of his pastor. You're right, a lot of Americans will do that regardless of any logic.

But I thought this was a thinking person's Democratic party site. I realize that this has been and will continue to be a tense primary, but the 'gotcha' nature of this transcends logic, transcends argument. I'm just asking if it makes sense for it to do so.

So while, as I said, you're right that a lot of people will paint Obama with Wright's brush, does that make it okay for all thinking Democrats to do so as well?


by vadasz on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:43:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: easy answer (none / 0)

well, I think it's fair for thinking people to look hard at all of this from a couple of perspectives

1. electability and how this will impact the general electorate and key swing states

2. if one is seriously offended and troubled (as I am) by the nature of Wright's comments and Obama's less than convincing explanations of their relationship.

I'm not exactly celebrating this, although I admit to getting a "told you so"  rush because I've been bitching about him not being "vetted" for some time ( and on this issue ) and have been shouted down for it.  To me this could potentially destroy the chances of either Democrat winning in the fall -- Obama because of the stain itself, Clinton because of how her candidacy would split the party.  If his poll numbers tumble over the next few weeks and there becomes clear evidence that his electability is in question over this I think the only thing that would save the fall is his stepping out of the race for whatever reason he wants to give.

All that said I am deeply offended by the comments (as Obama says he is as well) and now it comes down to an issue of honesty and integrity.   Did he know about this rhetoric all along, use Wright to bolster his support in his Illinois runs and within the AA community and now that it is politically expedient is he feigning outrage?   My fear is that's the case, at least that's how it feels so far.

The incediary nature of the comments themselves is off the table -- Obama himself admits to that much. I don't think I should have to tie my brain into a knot or delve into Wright's religious philosophy to "get right" with these comments when Obama himself is publically denouncing them.

So it becomes only about their relationship and how honest Obama is being about his knowledge of the comments and his past acceptance.   If Obama at one time supported and approved of these views I've got a major problem with him as a president and a candidate.   If he did only until it began to hurt him politically I've got major integrity issues.  

I doubt Obama is going to be able to convince me or too many others that he knew nothing about the nature of Wright's most inflammatory rhetoric.  If he did know and still sought counsel from Wright and supported his ministry without earmarks Obama has some serious explaining to do to get my vote and that still won't address electability problems should they arise.

Obama could have (and may have) earmarked his contributions to Wright's church to go only to community programs and not the church collection plate.  If he didn't that means he supported Wright in his inflammatory hate speech and anti-American rhetoric.

That may be cool with most liberals.  As I've said before, if supporting those who support hate speech and virulent anti-American sentiment is the new litmus test for liberalism?  I guess I'm not a liberal anymore.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:41:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope you don't vote for Obama (1.00 / 3)

in the GE, Susan... because since December, I've pretty much decided I don't ever want to knowingly be on the same side as you on anything ever again.

You ought to be proud.  We likely share some of the same policy views -- but you're Lee Atwater with a modem, so far as I'm concerned.  

You've moved from advocate to hatchet wielding hack.


by zonk on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:56:45 PM EST

Re: I hope you don't vote for Obama (1.00 / 2)

I'm pretty sure she's not a dem, or if she is one, she's not a Hillary supporter, after one would expect at least one postive diary if she supported Hill.


by Socraticsilence on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:32:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

I also heard that he was late to services 4 times and twice fell asleep during a sermon. What a terrible human being.


by tharr on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:56:53 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 4)

I hope that our press holds Obama's feet to the flames on this issue.  I'm tired of the love affair they've been having with this guy.  Rev. Wright is the last straw, as far as I'm concerned.  I've always considered myself on the left, but I find myself coming to the defense of our country like someone on the right.  God Damn America?!!!  What kind of preacher says these words in a Church?  And what kind of candidate looks up to this man as his spiritual leader.  Check please!


by izarradar on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:58:29 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

Nobody (at least around here) seems to understand that this goes past the patriotism and anti americanism of the pastor. What kind of pastor or church condones breaking a comandment in a sermon? The church doesn't even come off a Christian with that kind of statement.

Taking the lords name in vain IS breaking a comandment.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

His pastor broke a commandment and so we shouldn't vote for him?  Are you serious?  This is America, buddy, not a theocracy.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:44:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

Are you really that ignorant of religion? Geez, it's deeply offensive to lots of voters and it makes Christians wonder if it really is a Christian church or if it's just some kind of sham church that calls itself christian. Ministering breaking a commandment in church is SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 2)

According to the Chicago Sun Times, the Obama campaign has donated $157,600 of Rezko tainted money to charity. I assume that the campaign is required to report to which charities that money was given to. Does anyone know where one could find this information?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/ob ama/844455,CST-NWS-obama15.article


by Fleaflicker on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 10:59:20 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

But they recently claimed that they have received $250,000 of Rezko cash.  I hope Obama plans on returning more Rezko cash to charity.


by truthteller2007 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

Sounds like a "Fairytale" to me!!


by nikkid on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:01:34 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (2.00 / 1)

good questions and legitimate points, but the reporters covering Obama will not have the courage to ask it, except for Lynn Sweet. Lee Cowen is on love with him from NBC and the responsible person from FOX, Major Garrett will have a good time. Let us see what happens tomorrow.


by American1989 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:07:16 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (none / 0)

Hopefully he goes back on my new favorite news channel, Fox. They're the only ones with the jouralistic standards, ethics, and bravery to ask the questions everyone should be asking.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/17/2326 53/485

/snark!


by grover738 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama is an opportunist, not racist (2.00 / 1)

I truly believe that he is a total opportunist, and willing to let anyone, black, white, jewish etc onto his bandwagon.  This is what happened in his short career in the IL legislature.  

He'll let everyone on board to vote for him, and give no specifics as to what he will do.  It's all about hope and change, everyone understands that.

The problem is that now he has been caught with his pants down!  Tomorrow's explanation will be fascinating, since I don't know what he can say that erases his comments last Friday, when he said he never heard these awful comments of Rev. Wright until last week and that if he did, he would have told him how offended he was by them.....


by blustateguy68 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:09:01 PM EST

Re: Obama is an opportunist, not racist (none / 0)

If you think Obama offers no specifics, you haven't been paying attention.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:12:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is an opportunist, not racist (none / 0)

An opportunist = someone who wants lots of different people in an electoral coalition.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:27:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (2.00 / 0)

This is as un-American an idea as any I can imagine. You are calling on a candidate to answer questions about his church?  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:09:23 PM EST

When the pastor preaches God Damn America (2.00 / 0)

an answer is fair game.  

Or, Obama could say, those comments are a personal matter and I won't comment.  If he said that he'd be at 70% negatives overnight, so he must respond.


by blustateguy68 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:11:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When the pastor preaches God Damn America (2.00 / 0)

Did you ask the press to ask questions about John Kerry's support for a church that coddled pedophile priests and took different positions than he?

Have you called on the press to ask similar questions to Republicans who belong to evangelical churches which said that Katrina was God's punishment toward gays?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:14:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When the pastor preaches God Damn America (none / 0)

Thank you for asking that. Very good point!
by Becky G on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When the pastor preaches God Damn America (none / 0)

But the pedophiles and gay bashers were somehow different. Wright is.....umm.......scary.


by grover738 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When the pastor preaches God Damn America (none / 0)

There's something Dark about him hint hint!


by Socraticsilence on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:00:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When the pastor preaches God Damn America (none / 0)

And he was YELLING and waving his hands! I even saw spit coming out of his mouth.


by grover738 on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:45:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (2.00 / 1)

Question:]
If Obama doesn't want to discuss his religion now then why has he been talking about it and even sending flyers out with his picture in church? He's the one that has talked up TUCC and now that it's become toxic you guys think that it should be off limits?
No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (none / 0)

He was countering the Muslim story, that's why.  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:45:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, (none / 0)

Too bad too sad. He brought it up and he can't put that genie back in the bottle.


No longer a Democrat, now proudly an independent voter!
by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 05:20:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (none / 0)

"This is as un-American an idea as any I can imagine. You are calling on a candidate to answer questions about his church?  "

No, we are expecting as voters for the candidate to answer questions about hate speech, regardless of the venue it is spoken in.

In the family where I grew up if someone came in and spoke anything that hinted of racism, or told a racist joke, they were yelled out of the house and told not to return. That included relatives, neighbors, whoever. There is no way we would tolerate that poison around us.

I do expect a candidate who is asking for our trustand support  to lead this country to answer questions about the hate speech we have just seen on video from the person Obama cites as his "mentor" and "spiritual guide."


by 07rescue on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 06:13:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (none / 0)

He HAS spoken to it. He said he didn't agree with a lot of what Wright said.  Perhaps you might want to read his remarks, the transcripts of which are all over the net.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 08:28:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (none / 0)

"He HAS spoken to it. He said he didn't agree with a lot of what Wright said.  Perhaps you might want to read his remarks, the transcripts of which are all over the net."

He left many questions unanswered, and no, I have read and heard what seems to be endless verbiage from him, and found consistently he does not address the questions I have. No depth, just bromides, and nonsensical, ill informed, centrist policy I disagree with.


by 07rescue on Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 12:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (2.00 / 1)

Another hard hitting excellent diary. You ask the questions that any real journalist would, but doesn't.

Durbin's abject lying takes this to a whole new level of deception.

I too want to know how often Obama goes to this church he is so proud of. If he really doesn't agree with Wright and wants to prove that he never heard any of these heinous things he will produce a itinerary detailing his church going habits.


by Fleaflicker on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:10:05 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: (none / 0)

How do you know what the average sermon and service is like?  


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow (2.00 / 0)

Just wow, you want Obama to turn over the records of his tithing to his church. I imagine some of his money went to Trinity's Domestic Advocacy/Care ministry for physically and mentally abused women. I also imagine some went to their Drug & Alcohol recovery ministry and some to their HIV/AIDS ministry. The nerve of some of Obama's  money being used to support such programs.


Because I wont trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:19:21 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (2.00 / 3)

I found it hard to believe that Obama didn't know and agree with the ideology of his church.

I will give you an example.  I just moved my house 5 months ago, and I had to go around finding a new church near my new house.  I'm a catholic, and there are 5 catholic churches.   I finally came to feel at home at one of the church.  So I'm now regularly going there.  The other 4 churches had something that I didn't like.  But it all boiled down to what the priest said when he got to the podium.  He is the one that occupy the greatest chunk of time at the mass.  I need to agree with his preaching.  

One priest still bashed JK Rowling on Harry Potter promoting the witchcraft.  The other priest criticized gay's right (I happened to be a catholic that disagree with the Pope on this issue).  One priest I didn't like his speaking style (too brainwashing for me).  The forth church passed the donation bucket 3 rounds during a mass.  But you can see that even minor thing turn me off from a church.  

You can't go to a church that you disagree with its ideology.  It's like forcing straight people to be gay and vice versa.  I must feel at home when you go to your church.  Otherwise you won't go there.

 


by JoeySky18 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 at 11:20:57 PM EST

Re: Excuses, Excuses, Now Hard Questions: [UDPATED (none / 0)

With all due respect, perhaps you do not have a full picture of Wright and the church.  I ask you to read the Wright sermon from which Obama took the phrase the audacity of hope and then tell us what you think of those ideas.

The full text of Jeremiah Wright's "Audacity To Hope" sermon in 1990:

   Several years ago while I was in Richmond, the Lord allowed me to be in that city during the week of the annual convocation at Virginia Union University School of Theology. There I heard the preaching and teaching of Reverend Frederick G. Sampson of Detroit, Michigan. In one of his lectures, Dr. Sampson spoke of a painting I remembered studying in humanities courses back in the late '50s. In Dr. Sampson's powerful description of the picture, he spoke of it being a study in contradictions, because the title and the details on the canvas seem to be in direct opposition.

   The painting's title is "Hope." It shows a woman sitting on top of the world, playing a harp. What more enviable position could one ever hope to achieve than being on top of the world with everyone dancing to your music?

   As you look closer, the illusion of power gives way to the reality of pain. The world on which this woman sits, our world, is torn by war, destroyed by hate, decimated by despair, and devastated by distrust. The world on which she sits seems on the brink of destruction. Famine ravages millions of inhabitants in one hemisphere, while feasting and gluttony are enjoyed by inhabitants of another hemisphere. This world is a ticking time bomb, with apartheid in one hemisphere and apathy in the other. Scientists tell us there are enough nuclear warheads to wipe out all forms of life except cockroaches. That is the world on which the woman sits in Watt's painting.

   Our world cares more about bombs for the enemy than about bread for the hungry. This world is still more concerned about the color of skin than it is about the content of character--a world more finicky about what's on the outside of your head than about the quality of your education or what's inside your head. That is the world on which this woman sits.

   You and I think of being on top of the world as being in heaven. When you look at the woman in Watt's painting, you discover this woman is in hell. She is wearing rags. Her Georgefredericwattshope tattered clothes look as if the woman herself has come through Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Her head is bandaged, and blood seeps through the bandages. Scars and cuts are visible on her face, her arms, and her legs.

   I. Illusion of Power vs. Reality of Pain

   A closer look reveals all the harp strings but one are broken or ripped out. Even the instrument has been damaged by what she has been through, and she is the classic example of quiet despair. Yet the artist dares to entitle the painting Hope. The illusion of power--sitting on top of the world--gives way to the reality of p